Racism

Hello everyone, welcome to the Said in Therapy Podcast. Have you ever considered going to therapy and you ended up not going? My question is why? In my humble opinion, I believe everyone can benefit from therapy. In fact, I believe everybody should go at least once in their life.

My name is Iman Tohami, and I'm a psychologist. This podcast tells you all about everyday cases with everyday people who have everyday problems and difficulties, and sometimes they carry around really deep wounds. These are their stories.

Today I want to talk to you about racism and how it affects millions of people all over the world. So I invited my former client, Lena, to share her story with us. We have worked together in Dubai and stayed in touch throughout the years and had sessions here and there.

A couple of years back, she relocated to Europe where she faced racism at the workplace for the very first time. At first, she had a hard time recognizing the signs of discrimination. But you know what? Let her share his story.

Here it goes.

Hi Lina, how are you? It's so good to have you on the podcast. Hi, Iman.

Thanks for having me. It's good to be here.

So we are here today to discuss racism and how your experience is with racism after you leave relocated. So to give everybody an insight or an intro, you were working at an international company and you stayed there for two and a half years.

Tell us about this a little bit.

Well, um, when I first relocated, it was a little bit of a struggle for me at the beginning to find a job. And um I initially applied to many different jobs that were related to my old experience or my previous experience.

And then I figured that I obviously, being new to this specific country, I needed to readjust my expectations. So I started to apply to more entry-level jobs. And I was lucky enough to, at the time, thought I was lucky enough uh to stumble upon this opportunity, who were really uh eager to have me on board.

Uh, just to give a bit of background, of course, this job was not, again, it was an entry-level not related to what I had studied, which I graduated from a North American university from North America. And uh I speak as well three languages, including the language of the country I moved to, not to mention or also have international experience across different industries.

Yet I was very grateful to uh embark on this job and uh be part of that team.

What's interesting to me is I think we discussed this before. When you started working there, you initially didn't really think about racism or what this entails. When when we spoke, I usually told you, hey, you have to watch out a little bit.

Can you give us insight on your experience and how you dealt with racism within the company? And maybe you had to realize later on, oh, this was definitely racism.

Um, yes, that's very true, actually. We always um kept in touch and talked about this topic here and there uh during, before, and after my relocation. And um, I began actually to understand even as well your experience and what you were talking about, probably towards or in the middle and towards the end of my experience with this company.

Um one thing is that yes, I was definitely, as you said, not very familiar with, you know, straight on sort of, I would call in your face, racism, especially at the workplace. And um one lesson that I kind of probably learned and was a warning sign that I probably missed is you said that I went into this experience.

I don't know whether it was from due to naivety or not being biased myself. And one thing I really missed was um the fact that when you look at the um website of the company, or just when you even get the introduction of meeting the whole team, there was nobody there that looked like me.

Um, and I think one thing, and this is something again, um you could agree with, and it's a good takeaway, for at least from my end, from my experience as well, is that if you walk in and you don't see signals of others looking like you or others thriving and being successful in a position, then you're already in a way one foot out the door.

I think it's just a matter of time. And this is something obviously I realized after everything was over. Um it's important not to assume that just because it's an international corporate uh company that they would have these standards and they would really, you know, give this idea of diversity or non-bias or how they look and their image as a culture and as a company to the outside world a chance or even a thought.

Um, of course, I did not pay attention, or I kind of, you know, being a minority or being somebody from a very diverse background, I did not pay attention to the microaggressions, as they call it, that I got throughout the period I was there.

For example, giggles that I would get when I would explain my background, uh, strange comments or questions that were borderline inappropriate, for example, about my country of origin, somehow also even sexist comments uh to me directly about um something like, well, you know, perception and reality of my performance or my character and the way I am and how it is perceived in a different way.

Just something as simple as, well, you are a very energetic woman, you are very open and you're very communicative and vocal, and that could be misunderstood as not serious, which I found very interesting because um, in my opinion, I don't think that would be ever said to a male colleague.

Um stuff like that that happened across uh the period I was there, that I definitely um I would say either not missed, but yeah, I it's lessons learned to really, really, really look into these warning signs, not ignore them, and maybe politely and professionally challenge them.

I remember when you first started that job, you were very positive about it and you went and very excited, um, looking forward to um embark on a new journey, facing a new challenge. When did this shift for you?

When did you realize, okay, there might be a problem here, and it has nothing to do with me?

I think it happened gradually with an accumulation of what I mentioned with all these little comments here and there, microaggressions, with sometimes getting sort of like a little bit of a, I don't know, like you get a shudder or in your subconscious mind where you look at the pictures of all your colleagues and you really are the only one who looks very different.

And then you kind of push that away from your mind because you think, I don't mind, I don't care, this is a great experience. And um things started to kind of change. I had a very, let's say, uh a difficult boss, and that of course also affected um the work flow and the work ethic and everything.

And uh he was somebody who was generally known to be a difficult person. Um, also things like where I was once asked not to join a company meal that I had worked on coordinating, actually, uh, along with other guests, and I was asked to leave and eat my meal somewhere else.

That was um a big warning sign. Um little things like that. And I think um I kept, and I think this is very normal for people like myself, where you are new in a country, you really want to prove yourself, you blame yourself.

You say, actually, okay, maybe because I'm not in a senior level, maybe because I'm a junior, maybe because I don't know, um, my level of the language is not high enough, and I don't want to make them uncomfortable where they have to speak in English with me or something.

And you start to really, it starts to uh chip away and affect you and take away from your self-confidence. Um, I would like to actually bring in one of your episodes. I think it was one of the imposter episodes of your podcast where you spoke to Adrian, and there was a very nice thing that you mentioned also with the end and from his story, where when you are trying hard in a different land, um you really

already come from a very different setup, very different ideological background, and it's very hard for you, of course, to really integrate and really prove yourself in that place. And it's like being stuck in a different world and then moving on in a completely different environment.

So you're already putting a lot of pressure on yourself, right? Um, and I think that was very well put. I could relate to that. I probably did have a bit of imposter um tendencies where I thought, yeah, it's me, maybe I'm not good enough, maybe it's whatever, and I'm just happy to even be there.

Um and yeah, this was uh sadly how I was feeling towards the end and towards a big chunk of the last year.

I I think what people don't know about you is you're a bit of a perfectionist, and we have spoken about this a lot. So when you're in a situation like this, and then suddenly you do everything right and you scan your behavior to the point where you cannot find anything that is wrong or that you could improve.

This is what I observed, of course. Um, this is what shifted everything for you, where you realized, okay, I couldn't have possibly done more. So what is it? And I remember that at first you struggled with the thought that this could be something else.

I just want to know how did that make you feel at the end of the day? Because obviously you left that company on not the best terms, it wasn't a very positive exit for you. But I think what were your lessons learned?

What could you take home from this? Because obviously it was a very bad situation for you, and it was a hard um lesson to learn. But looking at it, um could you find meaning in all of that?

Definitely. I think it's very hard. I would say I'm probably still trying to find meaning, and I'm still definitely at some point in my healing phase and process because that takes time. Um, and I think uh I will refer to this and I'll never forget this.

For some reason, I really cannot forget this. And I think it was also the timing, but I I remember telling you about it shortly when it happened, where um I was asked to leave, and I was told amongst very vague reasons that one of the main reasons is that I don't fit there anymore.

I'm not a good fit for the company. Of course, saying this to somebody after two years, I think it's um I I although my self-esteem did take a hit, but I had enough self-esteem left to realize, oh my God, it is not me, you know, especially since I went through above and beyond, as you said, I already really monitored how I behave.

I I literally molded myself into what they want. I changed so much and I did above and beyond the job. I really tried to prove myself really hard. And and because I'm really hard on myself too, the fact that I'm saying I gave it my all.

I really did. There's I cannot yet find anything else that was missing. And then when we spoke about it, you said, honestly, this is the best thing that could happen to me. And at the time when I read it, I thought, of course, you have a million thoughts running through your head, but I kind of realized what you meant.

I just couldn't feel it at the moment. But I thought, okay, I'm gonna park this and I feel like it will be relevant to me in a couple of months. Um and now looking back at it, you know, in retrospect, definitely it was the best thing that could happen to me.

I think even if I stayed there and I had met whatever quote unquote standards that were looked for, it would have, you know, destroyed me probably. I would have become probably very unhappy, or I would have, who knows, burnt out, or um, it would have ended in an even worse way.

Um and I think it was the best thing really that happened to me because and it really made me realize that when you're authentic and when you're working hard and you're giving it your all, and based on how I grew up and all the cultures I've lived in and worked in, and based on even the idea of inclusion, belonging, diversity, and they do not make you feel that you belong.

They don't actually make an effort to keep you and successfully help you thrive when they see that you are so loyal to that place. Then you have to look for these signals at the beginning. That's what I really learned.

Like along the way, you have to look for the authenticity in the words that they gave you when they first hired you, when they first first had this period of flirting and courtship where they really want to hire you.

And you have to really hold people accountable, especially anywhere you are in North America, in Europe, wherever you are, to these standards and to the fact that they gave you these authentic words and they need to really hold up to that, especially if you had hold held up your bargain as a colleague and as a really good worker and an employee.

Um, I think that's what I learned. And um, I think it would be for me uh being bruised now a little bit and being treated with discrimination and being discriminated against. I would take this lesson for myself and for anybody who's listening, and you will definitely feel like you will take any positives and you will take a lot of positives, sorry, to outweigh any negative in your future working place.

You will be very mindful of what you let go, you will be very mindful of your boundaries and what's acceptable or not. And I think that is the best thing I've gained from this experience, to be honest, is to really recognize these things and hold people accountable for um their behavior and the way they treat people from a different background or profession, even.

I yeah, this was exactly my last question for you, because I think coming out of this experience, um you will now look for the right employer, not only for a job. So you will look for someone to work for who is accepting of you and understanding of the fact that you come from a different background and see this as an addition and not as something wrong or something to hide.

And I think this could be a beautiful experience, but at the same time, I understand how hard it is. But what I want to know from you, do you recognize how important it is to stay authentic in any kind of relationship?

Not only, you know, when we say stay authentic, we usually mean interpersonal relationships. But being authentic is also something really important when you're working somewhere or for someone.

Definitely. And I think being authentic is a two-way street. So whether it's on a corporate level or on a personal level, I mean, one thing I really learned from this is to really be yourself, speak up when you need to.

Always, of course, respectfully and professionally, but be yourself, speak up when you need to. And um, I would always also say that I I mean, I would say thanks to you, of course, and my own work that I've done on myself, I was strong enough to move on.

Uh, a lot of people probably who probably went through my experience and the shock of it and all of that, they probably would have sought help. And I think that is also okay. Seek help, talk about it. This will be and does take a toll on a person's self-worth and self-esteem.

I don't think anybody is immune to that, to be uh going through an experience of a mix of discrimination, sexism, and of course having a toxic boss. That was a um a bit of um trio for me. But it's very important to seek help.

It's very important to bounce back in a healthy way to make sure that your next experience is healthy. And I think for me as well, stay, like you mentioned, stay authentic. And for a corporate level or anybody out there who is, let's say, you know, on the other side, please speak to your employees.

Check on your culture, be mindful of what is socially appropriate and what is socially not appropriate. Um, do trainings, um, check your hiring pool. Look at where you're hiring people from, where is that pool coming from? Just just, you know, be very self-reflective as to why it is that there is one individual that is standing out so hard amongst a small, medium enterprise or even bigger.

Really check where you're getting your talent from, really be mindful of that and and really be authentic in getting these minorities on board and making them stay and retain them and mean it.

I thank you, Lena, for sharing your story with us. I think that many people can benefit from your experience just by listening. And I really hope that you will find a place that suits you better next time.

I hope so too. Thank you so much. It was great to speak about this and just share my lessons. It was also a bit of a nice way to talk about it and deal with it even after the fact.

Um, yeah, it was lovely to talk to you.

To end this episode, I would like to explain how racism is defined from a psychological point of view. And I will try to summarize it the best I can, because this is one of the bigger subjects in social psychology.

Two of the types of racism that are defined in social psychology are explicit and implicit racism. So what does that mean? Explicit racism is intentional and often practiced openly to embrace discrimination. For example, hate groups like the Nazis, the KKK, the alt-right, or the white nationalists, political groups that openly attack non-white people.

We find that people identifying themselves as part of those groups have no problem using racial slurs against a non-white person. They publicly and consciously support racism and often make racist jokes. But there is also implicit racism. You might assume that implicit racism is the opposite of explicit racism, but that's not the case.

Implicit racism is defined as an unconscious bias when making judgment about people from a different racial or ethnic or religious group. According to the definition, implicit racism is an automatic negative reaction to someone of a different race or ethnicity.

Examples of implicit racism are the unconscious fear and mistrust of people who don't belong to the same ethnic or racial group. Implicit racism can also mean that employers dismiss job applicants with non-white sounding names. But also the stereotypes in media that portray a non-white person in a negative way.

And what Lena mentioned, microaggressions. I hope I was able to explain those concepts to you. And as always, if you have any questions, don't hesitate to reach out.

Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode so far. If you have any questions or suggestions, please don't hesitate to reach out. You can find me on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. The handle is always @saidintherapy.