Therapist to Therapist: On Forgiveness with Chereen Shurafa

Hello everyone, welcome to the Said in Therapy Podcast. Have you ever considered going to therapy and you ended up not going? My question is why? In my humble opinion, I believe everyone can benefit from therapy. In fact, I believe everybody should go at least once in their life.

My name is Iman Tohami, and I'm a psychologist. This podcast tells you all about everyday cases with everyday people who have everyday problems and difficulties, and sometimes they carry around really deep wounds. These are their stories.

Another week, another episode. So today we are going to continue with the therapist talks to therapist segment. And I'm actually really excited about this episode because I'm talking to Chereen. She is um the person behind Dear Chereen. You can find her on Instagram, her website.

I will link everything in the description. So her website is dearchereen.com, and she basically has this advice column. She's a counselor and currently located in Qatar. She is really wonderful. And I think you will really love this conversation because I sure did.

And it is about forgiveness and what it entails and what it means to forgive, and when you're ready to forgive, and what if you're not ready to forgive? So we are actually discussing a very, very, very important concept in psychology or in self-healing.

And I think we don't talk about forgiveness enough because we all have a different concept when it comes to forgiveness. We have some idea what forgiveness actually is, but do we actually forgive? When do we forgive? And does it mean you forgive and forget?

So we are trying to answer all of these questions. And I really hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. Please follow Chereen, she's wonderful. And yeah, without further ado, enjoy.

And I have a wonderful guest with me today. And I would love for her to introduce herself because, as you know, I think everybody can introduce themselves the best way. So here we go. Welcome.

Thank you so much for having me, Iman. It's um seriously a pleasure. Um, so yeah, so my name is Chereen, uh, and I run the platform uh Dear Chereen, which is an advice and inspiration um and mental health column as well.

And basically, I am a master's educated counselor and a certified coach. And I also focus on the topic of grief. Uh, I write, I freelance um in my spare time as well.

So tell us, we we agreed that we to today we are going to talk about forgiveness and especially the concept about uh of forgiveness, the definition of forgiveness, because I think everybody is everybody has an understanding of what forgiveness is, but I think there's also a lot of um there is this misinformation about forgiveness that when you forgive, you also have to forget and you know just move on as as though nothing ever happened.

So I would like to know what's your view on forgiveness, because I know you have researched the topic a lot and share with us what you know about forgiveness.

So, you know, I like to challenge the idea of forgiveness because um there's this perception that, like you said, you forgive and you forget. But I believe that you'd be a fool if you forgot, because every single thing that happens to you, every circumstance, uh, it's an opportunity for you to learn.

And there are certain things you shouldn't forget. I also don't believe that you forget anything. I feel like it just gets buried over time, and sometimes within good reason, and sometimes it's not within good reasons. So the forgiveness is the act or process of uh forgiving or being forgiven.

And when you apologize to someone, it's basically an oath. And it's half the oath is apologizing, the other half is following it with actions. So, what do you expect from someone when uh you seek their forgiveness? Uh you're following through with half the oath, right?

You're saying, okay, I'm sorry. And then the other half is acting on it. So, what do we expect from people when we seek their forgiveness? And what should we expect out of ourselves when we forgive? And I think that it's a process that takes time.

Some people are easy to forgive, and I think it also depends upon what you're forgiving, right? So it depends on the intensity of what happened. If someone betrays you and uh the trust is completely ruined, it's a lot more difficult to forgive.

And you can find it in you to forgive, but you're not gonna be able to necessarily forget. Things aren't gonna return to how they were, they're gonna be completely different. And can you really, you know, expect someone to not want things to be the same if you've betrayed their trust?

Can you um expect is it is it it's not it's normal to not um it's normal for things to not resume, you know, as to how they were before. So so basically, you know, those are just a few things that I've noticed about forgiveness.

I feel like, you know, so much literature should come out about forgiveness because there are so many misconceptions and so many incorrect expectations out of people when it comes to forgiveness. And I think that we need to focus more on the forgiver and what they prefer rather than expecting them to simply forgive and forget.

You said something very interesting, you know, because um, from a psychological point of view, forgiveness is always in the center of therapy. So whatever happened to you, or if you have done something to yourself, so self-forgiveness is also a big um theme that we follow through therapy.

But you said something very interesting, and I think that's also important. So generally speaking, you can say forgiveness is a very good thing. However, if you forgive someone, it doesn't mean that the relationship or the circumstances of your relationship have to return to normal or have to return to what they were before the incident happened.

So you can totally forget, uh, sorry, forgive someone who hurt you in the past, but you still decide that this person is no longer part of your life. Doesn't mean that you have grudges or are resentful toward them.

You just decided that this person is um not good for you, and you took action and decided and are firm standing behind this decision. But at the end of the day, forgiveness does not does not mean that everything has to return to normal, right?

Is this also your view?

That's definitely my view. And I think even with yourself, you know, like you mentioned the whole point about self-forgiveness. I think that's something that takes time, you know, like uh it takes really reflecting and communicating with yourself to be able to forgive yourself.

And of course, it's amazing that you can go to therapy, and that helps you navigate your self-forgiveness, right? And and of course, uh if it's it's difficult for things sometimes to return to normal uh when you've forgiven someone.

And I think what you're saying is boundaries, you know, like after you go through something, an experience, you set you might want to set boundaries, and that's to protect yourself, it's to protect your heart, it's to make sure that you know you'll be okay moving forward if you choose to continue to have this person in your life.

Chereen, tell me. So if someone goes through an experience that was very upsetting, and let's say, as you said, got cheated on or betrayed, and they're now in a situation where they have to forgive the other person, what would you recommend?

How do they approach this situation and how do they deal with that? Because sometimes I feel that we as a society are pushing people to forgive even though they are not ready yet.

You know, I think you make a good point with the whole aren't ready yet, right? So it's a lot of introspection and a lot of reflecting. I think it's important to ask yourself, are you ready? Am I ready to forgive this person?

And am I ready to start the process of forgiveness? And what does that look like for me? Um, I think a lot of communication with yourself, right? And and and what's the reason I'm forgiving? And I think the most important reason you forgive is because you want to alleviate your heart, right?

Because when you don't forgive, the frustration builds in your heart, and you spend a lot of time thinking about how that person made you feel. So your aim should always be to forgive because you want to alleviate your heart.

It's not selfish, it's sustainable, right? Like you should be able to move forward in life without holding on to the past. So I think that through communicating with yourself, um, understanding your intention to forgive, and then also it's it's part of being able to let go, right?

Um, say that it it was something really unfortunate happened in the relationship where maybe you were cheated on or you're cheated really badly. Um, and you really want to be able to let go of the past. Uh, when you do forgive for the sake of being able to move forward, it makes it easier for you to let go.

Um, and then it also makes it easier for you to let go of the person if you feel like it just isn't, it's not, it's not working out and you don't trust them. Right. Um and I think that's important, right?

It's also important for closure, Iman. Um, because closure isn't something that someone gives you. And if you wait for someone to give you closure, you're never going to be satisfied. When you're able to forgive yourself or you know, forgive for the sake of uh being able to move forward, then you're able to also obtain some closure.

You know, I don't know if you have read the book or saw the movie, but it always, whenever I think about forgiveness, when I was very young, I read the book, The Count of Monte Cristo, and it's for context, it's about this guy who was actually a voyager, or I don't know, he was some some kind of something fisherman.

And his best friend was actually a wealthy person. And he was this wealthy friend was always jealous of him. So he made sure that he would be arrested, and then he ended up in jail, and then he found out that his best friend betrayed him and that he was arrested for no reason and that he was innocent.

So in jail, he plotted his revenge without giving too much away from the story. He eventually got out of jail and got a lot of money and plotted his revenge, and he was more or less able to get his revenge.

But the moral of the story is it would have been better for him to forgive. And you said forgiveness is for you, it is also a gift to the other person, obviously, because if you're forgiven, it helps you also to move away from a situation that was maybe also painful and hurt for to you as someone who did something.

But at the end of the day, when you, as a person who has been hurt forgives, you are basically doing yourself a favor. Can you explain how that how this works?

So you're right about that. I think when you forgive someone, you are gifting them, right? Um, you're gifting them the fact that they no longer uh resent themselves, they're they no longer beat themselves up. This is if they care, you know, um, because each person is different.

Some people will hurt someone and they won't feel remorseful, some will and they'll feel very uh disappointed in themselves. So from that sense, you know, like when you do forgive someone, you are you're making their life a bit easier.

You're making it able, you're making it for them, it's giving them an opportunity to say, wow, you know, I feel I feel much better. Um, I, you know, they this person is able to move forward um from my actions and and not feel upset, disappointed, even depressed or angry.

Um and that's pretty important, right? But even that, maybe that gift will take time.

We always feel that forgiveness is something we give someone else, which is true in essence, but there is this whole other aspect to forgiveness that is totally about you.

So so this is so that aspect is the most important part, right? Because when someone hurts you, right, your heart is this vessel. So you're you're filling your heart with uh very tough emotions, right? Um, and and it's something that you constantly think about.

You constantly think about it, it brews, and your heart continues to be filled, right? Um, it's filled with anger, disappointment, frustration, hatred. Um, and and that those are really, really tough emotions to live with. Um, they're toxic, right, for you.

Um, and they might not necessarily be toxic for anyone else unless you're lashing out at them or for the person that hurts you. So you feel more um than the person that said something to you. Uh I guess you know, I want to take that back because it's not necessarily the case in certain situations.

Um sometimes people feel incredibly guilty and they can't move forward, they feel debilitated by their actions. Um, but we're talking about the person that's forgiving, right? So when you forgive um and and and you forgive yourself, uh sometimes you have to forgive yourself because you're the one that, you know, you feel like you're the one that was put in this, put yourself in this situation.

And had you not met this person, had you not, you know, allowed them to talk to you a certain way, had you not acted before, had you listened to your gut, um, you're beating yourself up, right? Forgive yourself.

You recognize that, hey, I'm human. Um, sometimes things are out of my hands, and if it wasn't out of my hands, then this was a learning opportunity, and and it's something that I need to move forward from so that I can continue to you know take care of my mind and my heart, and I'll learn for next time.

Um, and I think that's pretty important, and and and it makes life sustainable because you can feel very, very depressed um when you don't forgive. And you don't necessarily have to tell someone that you've forgiven them, by the way.

Right.

Uh you can, because it's a nice gesture. It's a gesture though. You don't have to say, hey, I forgive you. Um sometimes you forgive between you and your heart. You forgive, and that's what alleviates it. You're like, okay, you know what?

I feel like I've forgiven them. And and if you're ever ready, you can tell them that you forgive them, but I feel like it's a process. Um, and sometimes the process of telling someone that you've forgiven them takes more time.

There is another side to it though. I remember I used to work with drug addicts in the very beginning of my career. So obviously, people who are addicted to let's say substance abuse, specifically, let's say heroin, which a very which is a very hard drug, and it changes your being so much that you do things that you thought were not possible before substance abuse.

So you do a lot of things, you maybe steal, cheat, lime, and then you find yourself in recovery, and you have so many people that you have hurt, and you basically wait for their forgiveness because it's part of the whole recovery journey, and you maybe also go out and ask for forgiveness, and you are not granted this forgiveness.

Now, you as a person who knows you have done something wrong and you really messed up, how can you get past this and maybe find forgiveness for yourself and your actions?

You know, I think the fact that you've acknowledged that you've hurt someone. Um, and and sometimes uh when when you become addicted, right, it becomes out of your hands. Your act this isn't to say that you shouldn't be accountable because you got into drugs, you made that choice.

Um But I feel like seeking forgiveness, right, is an important aspect of forgiveness. And and knowing that sometimes people need time to forgive. And if they don't forgive, then you know, unfortunately that's something that you have to live with because it's a consequence of your actions.

Um but knowing that, hey, if they ever did come to me and they said that they forgave me, then it's because I did the right thing and I made the effort to apologize to them. And it's also knowing that, hey, um, if they did come to me, then I'm not gonna repeat it in the future.

And I think that's holding yourself accountable and that makes it a bit easier because you're reassuring yourself that you know the process of forgiveness is gonna be something that continues to move forward, and I'm not gonna disappoint if they choose to accept my apology.

So I realize you have given this a lot of thought. Is this something that you know blossomed out of personal experience? What made you, you know, dig deeper into the subject of forgiveness?

So I think, you know, or I feel honestly, I feel like it's something that we go through daily. So so I read a lot and and I've seen a lot of things about forgiveness. And you know, you can look at something like Pinterest and you'll see something about forgiveness, and it's and it's something that a lot of people will save, right?

But it might not necessarily be accurate. Um, and I know I noticed that people they they go with what they've heard. Um, and that made me want to dig deeper. And of course, it's also personal experience because I was someone that was bullied as a child, you know, and and I've had experiences where I've been treated um disrespectfully.

And and for me, it was you forgive and you forget, but then I was like, what? You know, like I've said that I've forgiven, but I'm feeling all these angers that are emotions that are the opposite of forgiveness.

Um, and I mentioned it, anger, I'm still feeling anger. Um, that was a Freudian slip, but anyway. Um yeah, I'm still feeling anger, I'm still feeling resentment. So what did I actually forgive? Did I forgive anything? And I've noticed this too with clients, you know, that'll say, oh, you know, I forgave.

And then it's the total opposite. Right. Their reaction is not forgiveness, their reaction is resentment, um, hatred. It's it's a plethora of just negative feelings towards that person. I'm like, are have you really forgiven? And and most of the time they'll say, No, I haven't.

So that made me want to dig deeper because I think that forgiveness is this huge uh subject, right? With uh it's like an onion. It's got so many layers, and we need to peel back and really, really understand what is forgiveness.

And and is it okay for someone if they don't forgive? Because we've made it so inappropriate to not forgive. But what if you can't forgive?

Right.

You know, how do you communicate with someone if they say they can't forgive? And can you blame a person for not forgiving? And do you know, do you do you sit down with them and do you say, hey, can you potentially forgive?

What if they say no? You know, like these are things that we really need to think about because we pause, like we stop the conversation, forgive and forget. You need to move forward or move on, sorry, but I'm all about moving forward.

And moving forward means actually dealing with things, and it means asking questions that we don't necessarily want to ask because that's the reality, right?

Right. And I think it's also important to remember that sometimes a relationship has to break. So it's not necessarily about the act of forgiveness that mends the relationship or friendship that is affected by something. And at the end of the day, you know, when you move forward, as you say, and let's say you meet again in a couple of years, and you two are totally new people, evolve into new person, not new personalities, but you have

grown, and then all of a sudden you just start having new conversations and new friendship or new. New relationship comes out of this, it doesn't mean that you necessarily have forgiven what happened back then, but or maybe not forgotten, but you made peace with it to the to the extent that you can say, Yeah, I can still be around this person, but it never it will never be the same again.

Of course. And I think that's closure, right? You've given yourself closure from the situation. You've ended the chapter, and you feel like you can, you know, move on to another chapter in your life. And that chapter could include the person.

You know, something else, uh, time. Time sometimes heals. The more that you grow, the more that you discover, um, the more that you work on yourself, uh, growth, all of those things aid you in healing. So you might find that, like you said, and this world is so small, right?

You run into that person and you don't feel negativity, you feel at peace, and you feel like you're okay communicating with them if you run into them. You're not okay maybe with having uh a close relationship, but you feel okay.

And I think the most important thing is to feel okay, to feel like, hey, I can do this. I had this conversation and I didn't feel like breaking down. I feel absolutely okay. You know, sometimes uh Iman, you also wake up one morning and you feel like you've forgiven.

Sometimes it works like that. That's it. And and you know, each person is different, each individual is completely different. And this is Carl Rogers, right? Like it depends on the individual. Um, each person does have a huge capacity to forgive, right?

But sometimes the past, sometimes our experiences make it difficult. And we need to understand that and respect that, right? So it doesn't mean that a person, it's impossible for them to ever forgive. It just means that the timeline is different.

Yes, I agree. And I also agree, just to highlight it again, the concept of forgiving is not equal to forgetting, because I believe forgetting things is quite impossible because you learn from your experience. Whether it is something you have done or something that has happened to you, you always learn from your experience.

And lessons learned um cannot be forgotten. So I believe forgotten, yes, you can forgive and forget. That happens, of course, but at the end, at the same time, I also think um forgetting is not realistic because when something bad happens to you, you should learn from the situation and not just you know suppress it and move forward.

Exactly. So a lot of the time we suppress, right? And we assume that we've forgotten, but then something happens, right? Something small and it reminds you and it opens up this like box that you had stored away and you labeled as forgiveness.

So so that does happen. And it's unfortunate when that happens and it makes your process of forgiveness or of moving forward, whatever it might be, it makes it a lot more difficult. I think that lessons are difficult, right?

Um they can be very, very challenging, and sometimes we don't want to learn the lesson, we just want to move on. But when you do take the effort, make the effort to understand the lesson, to uh learn from it, to you know note some takeaways rather than just want to quickly forget, you protect yourself in the long run.

Um and and and you come out with this newfound wisdom as well.

And to protect yourself from possibly repeating the same mistake or letting something of the same magnitude happen to you again.

Definitely. And you know, when you do that, when you're able to see the warning signs, right, in the future, you feel so much better about yourself when you avoid something. Like you kind of just want to give yourself this big hug because you're like, you know, you go girl, you learn that lesson and you're not gonna repeat it.

It's you looking out for yourself. And sometimes we have to do the hard work early on. Um, learning a lesson, right? Is is it's not easy and it can be tough. And halfway through you might want to just escape.

But when you do the hard work, it really does pay off, and you become that much closer to yourself, which is so important. It's it's a wonderful feeling to be able to be on your own team and to do things that you know mean that you're taking care of your inner self.

Yes, that's wonderful.

Beautifully said.

You're wonderful.

Oh, Chereen. I want to thank you so much, true, for sharing your thoughts with us because I really think what you have to say is so valuable and beneficial. Thank you for having me. I really do. I will have I will you know put your um profiles in the description.

Um also your website. You guys, you have to check out Dear Chereen on Instagram, website Dear Chereen. I think Facebook too, Twitter too, maybe. I don't know. But please follow her, she's so great. And when you just you know read her advice column, it makes your heart jump full of joy.

You know, it's everything. You're making me blush. I really do appreciate it. Thank you.

I wish we could see that. One day we'll do a video podcast, no problem.

Thank you so much, Chereen.

Thank you for having me. I really do appreciate it, and I absolutely love Said in Therapy. Thank you so much. The love is mutual, Iman. Thank you.

All right, hey, thank you so much for tuning in, and hopefully, you will tune in again next week. It will be another episode talking to or about clients of mine, and you can find us on social media on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

The handle is always @saidintherapy. Thank you so much.